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ÈÝìá: ÕðåñäéáóôáóéïëïãçìÝíïò ëÝâçôáò êáé óõ÷íÝò åêêéíÞóåéò (cycling)

  1. #1

    ÕðåñäéáóôáóéïëïãçìÝíïò ëÝâçôáò êáé óõ÷íÝò åêêéíÞóåéò (cycling)


    Çëåêôñïíéêü êáôÜóôçìá åéäþí èÝñìáíóçò êáé êëéìáôéóìïý

    Êáéíïýñéï ìÝëïò óôï öïñïõì êáé êáëþò óáò âñÞêá. Ìðáßíù êáôåõèåßáí óôï øçôü.....

    Óå ôñéüñïöç ìåæïíÝôá (140m3) ìå éó÷ý åãêáôåóôçìÝíùí óùìÜôùí 16.5kW óå 90/70, Ý÷ù "öïñôùèåß" Ýíáí 30áñé ëÝâçôá (óõìðõêíùìÜôùí ìå áíôéóôÜèìéóç) ï ïðïßïò ìðïñåß íá ðÝóåé ìÝ÷ñé ôá 7kW (åëÜ÷éóôç éó÷ýò).

    Ôï ðñüâëçìá åßíáé üôé üôáí Ýíáò üñïöïò æçôÜåé èÝñìáíóç, ç éó÷ýò ôùí óùìÜôùí åßíáé áðü 3-5kW óå 70/60 (áíÜëïãá ôïí üñïöï) Þ áðü 2.5-4.5kW óå 65/55 ìå áðïôÝëåóìá íá ðáñïõóéÜæïíôáé ôá ãíùóôÜ áíáâïóâçóßìáôá (cycling).

    Ôñßá åñùôÞìáôá ãéá ôçí ðáñÝá:

    1. ÊáôÜ ðüóï ôï ðñüâëçìá áõôü (á) áõîÜíåé ôçí êáôáíÜëùóç êáé (â) åðéâáñýíåé ôïí ßäéï ôïí ëÝâçôá?
    2. ¸÷åé íüçìá íá óçêþóù ôçí éó÷ý ôùí åãêáôåóôçìÝíùí óùìÜôùí (áíôéêáèéóôþíôáò ôá ìéêñüôåñá óþìáôá ìå ìåãáëýôåñá) þóôå íá ìåéþóù, ùò Ýíá âáèìü, ôá áíáâïóâçóßìáôá ôïõ ëÝâçôá?
    3. Áí ç ìåëÝôç áðùëåéþí ôçò êáôïéêßáò Ýâãáëå 16.5kW, åßíáé óùóôÞ ç åãêáôÜóôáóç óùìÜôùí ìå óõíïëéêÞ éó÷ý 16.5kW õðïëïãéóìÝíç óå 90/70 áðü ôç óôéãìÞ ðïõ, óôç ÷åéñüôåñç ðåñßðôùóç, ôï óýóôçìá èá ëåéôïõñãåß óå 75/65?
    Last edited by tsugani; 04-04-2014 at 16:04:44.

  2. #2
    ÓõíôïíéóôÞò marmaou's Avatar
    Çìåñïìçíßá åããñáöÞò
    Mar 2013
    ÈÝóç
    Pallini, Greece.
    Éäéüôçôá:
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    ÕðÜñ÷åé Ýíá ãíùóôü ñçôü óôçí ðåñéï÷Þ ôçò äéïßêçóçò åðé÷åéñÞóåùí ðïõ åöáñìüæåôáé êáé åäþ. "You can't manage what you don't measure". ÕðÜñ÷ïõí óôïé÷åßá ãéá êÜðïéï åðï÷éáêü äåßêôç åðßäïóçò (ð.÷. AFUE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_...ion_efficiency) êáé åÜí íáé ðüóï äéáöÝñåé áðü ôéò áðïäåêôÝò ôéìÝò;

  3. #3
    Ößëå marmaou åßíáé ðñþôá áð'üëá èÝìá êïéíÞò ëïãéêÞò.

    ¸íá áõôïêßíçôï ðïõ ðÜåé ìå ðÝìðôç êáé 100 ÷ëì/ùñá êáßåé ËÉÃÏÔÅÑÏ óå ó÷Ýóç ìå ôï áí ðÞãáéíå ìßæá-ðñþôç-äåõôÝñá-óâÞóéìï, ìßæá-ðñþôá-äåõôÝñá-óâÞóéìï êÜèå 3 ëåðôÜ.

    Êáé äå ÷ñåéÜæåôáé êáíÝíáò äåßêôçò ãéá íá ôï åðéâåâáéþóåé áõôü....
    Last edited by tsugani; 27-03-2014 at 13:14:13.

  4. #4
    Äéá÷åéñéóôÞò monachus's Avatar
    Çìåñïìçíßá åããñáöÞò
    May 2001
    ÈÝóç
    Èåóóáëïíßêç
    Éäéüôçôá:
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    Ôé ëÝâçôá Ý÷åéò åãêáôáóôÞóåé tsugari;
    "Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ åßíáé åñãÜôçò.
    Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ êáé ôï ìõáëü ôïõ åßíáé ôå÷íßôçò
    Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ, ôï ìõáëü ôïõ êáé ôçí êáñäéÜ ôïõ åßíáé êáëëéôÝ÷íçò."

    ¯ St Francis of Assisi

  5. #5
    ÓõíôïíéóôÞò marmaou's Avatar
    Çìåñïìçíßá åããñáöÞò
    Mar 2013
    ÈÝóç
    Pallini, Greece.
    Éäéüôçôá:
    Ì-Ç Ìç÷áíéêüò
    ÁðáíôÞóåéò
    171
    ÐáñÝíèåóç Áñ÷éêÜ äçìïóéåõìÝíï áðü ôïí tsugani ÅìöÜíéóç áðÜíôçóçò
    Ößëå marmaou åßíáé ðñþôá áð'üëá èÝìá êïéíÞò ëïãéêÞò.
    ...
    Êáé äå ÷ñåéÜæåôáé êáíÝíáò äåßêôçò ãéá íá ôï åðéâåâáéþóåé áõôü....
    Åêôüò ôçò êïéíÞò ëïãéêÞò õðÜñ÷ïõí êáé ïé ìåôñÞóåéò ãéá íá îÝñïõìå ðüóï êáëýôåñá Þ ÷åéñüôåñá åßíáé ôá ðñÜãìáôá.

    ¸÷ïíôáò Ýíá ðáñüìïéï ðñüâëçìá ìå ôï äéêü óïõ, åãêáôÜóôáóç ìå ëÝâçôá ðåôñåëáßïõ ÷áìçëþí èåñìïêñáóéþí 35kW, åíäïäáðÝäéï, áíôéóôÜèìéóç, áéóèçôÞñéï èåñìïêñáóßáò ÷þñïõ, áðþëåéåò ó÷åäéáóìïý ðåñß ôá 13 kW óôïõò 0ïC (óôçí ðñáãìáôéêüôçôá ðåñß ôá 16kW), Ýêáíá ìéá óåéñÜ ìåôñÞóåùí ãéá ðåñßïäï äýï åâäïìÜäùí ìå åîùôåñéêÞ èåñìïêñáóßá êÜôù ôùí 8ïC. Ôá áðïôåëÝóìáôá:

    KáõóôÞñáò: 55 h ëåéôïõñãßáò, 911 åíáýóåéò (ìÝóç äéÜñêåéá on 3:40 min)
    ÈåñìéêÞ åíÝñãåéá ðïõ ðñïóöÝñèçêå óôï åíäïäáðÝäéï: 1612,3 kWh.
    ÊáôáíÜëùóç: 170 lt ðåôñÝëáéïõ ðïõ áíôéóôïé÷ïýí óå ðåñßðïõ 1700 kWh
    (Èåñìïãüíïò éêáíüôçôá ðåôñåëáßïõ 10150 kcal/kg, ðõêíüôçôá 0,85kg/lt)
    Âáèìüò áðüäïóçò ðåñßðïõ 95%, Ýíáíôé ôõðéêÞò áðüäïóçò ëÝâçôá 87%.

    Ãéáôß Þôáí êáëýôåñï ôïõ áíáìåíüìåíïõ; Êýñéïò ëüãïò ç ÷áìçëÞ ìÝóç èåñìïêñáóßá ôïõ ëÝâçôá 45-50 ïC (áíÜëïãá ìå ôçí åîùôåñéêÞ èåñìïêñáóßá).

    Ðáñüôé ç õðåñ-äéáóôáóéïëüãçóç åßíáé áðü ôå÷íéêÞò ðëåõñÜò ëÜèïò êáé ðñÝðåé íá áðïöåýãåôáé (Ýãêáéñá),
    ìå ëÝâçôá áåñßïõ üðïõ ç éó÷ýò åßíáé ìåôáâëçôÞ, óå óõíäõáóìü ìå áíôéóôÜèìéóç êáé Ýíá áéóèçôÞñéï ÷þñï ãéá áíÜäñáóç,
    ïé åðéäüóåéò äåí èá ðñÝðåé íá åßíáé éäéáßôåñá êáêÝò. ÂÝâáéá ÷ùñßò ìåôñÞóåéò äåí îÝñïõìå ãéáôß áêñéâþò ìéëÜìå.

  6. #6
    ÐáñÝíèåóç Áñ÷éêÜ äçìïóéåõìÝíï áðü ôïí monachus ÅìöÜíéóç áðÜíôçóçò
    Ôé ëÝâçôá Ý÷åéò åãêáôáóôÞóåé tsugari;

    Genus Premium 30 ôçò Ariston...

  7. #7
    ÐáñÝíèåóç Áñ÷éêÜ äçìïóéåõìÝíï áðü ôïí marmaou ÅìöÜíéóç áðÜíôçóçò
    ÂÝâáéá ÷ùñßò ìåôñÞóåéò äåí îÝñïõìå ãéáôß áêñéâþò ìéëÜìå.
    Êáé âÝâáéá îÝñïõìå ãéá ôß ìéëÜìå. Ôï éíôåñíåô åßíáé ãåìÜôï áðü ðëçñïöïñßá ãéá ôï èÝìá....

    Êáé äåí åßíáé ìüíï ç áõîçìÝíç êáôáíÜëùóç. Åßíáé êáé ç öèïñÜ ôïõ ëÝâçôá ðïõ ãïíáôßæåé ìå ôï Üíáøå-óâÞóå.

    Short cycling results in excessive heat loss up the exhaust stack during the pre- and post-purge steps of the boiler cycle as the purged air is heated and air is forced through the boiler to remove any remaining combustible gas mixture. Purge temperatures range from 50°F (10°C) to 100°F (38°C).
    A short cycling boiler is typically 10% to 15% less efficient than a normal operating boiler at low firing rates. Short cycling can also drastically reduce the life of boiler components, such as gas train parts, from years to months. If a boiler is cycling on and off every five minutes, these parts are being subjected to 100,000 cycles per year. A boiler's life could be reduced by 80%, especially since flame temperatures can be as high as 2,500°F (1,370°C). Some in the industry believe that short-cycle prevention may be better than installing an ultra-high-efficiency boiler because savings of up to 80% are possible.
    http://members.questline.com/Article.aspx?articleID=19475&accountID=1874&nl=12146
    Gus Rehm, the late chief engineer of the Watertube Division of Cleaver-Brooks, indicated that the efficiency of a short-cycling boiler was at least 15 percentage points less than the lowest efficiency achieved at low fire.

    Patterson-Kelley has recently completed development of a boiler room energy analysis software program that, among its other capabilities, calculates cycle and run time effects on fuel use. Here, too, the prevention of short-cycling can be seen to have a dramatic effect on boiler fuel consumption.
    http://www.achrnews.com/articles/short-cycling-can-hamper-boiler-efficiency
    An over-sized furnace will also be less efficient. A furnace is least efficient when it first fires up, and doesn't reach its peak efficiency until the temperature of the air coming out has reached a steady value. When a furnace is over-sized, it spends a large portions of its running hours in the 'warming up' phase. Once it reaches a steady temp, the thermostat has been satisfied and the furnace shuts back off.
    When a furnace constantly cycles on and off, the life of the furnace is dramatically reduced.
    http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/229071341.html
    Oversizing the HVAC system is detrimental to energy use, comfort, indoor air quality, building, and equipment durability. All of these impacts derive from the fact that the system will be “short cycling” in both the heating and cooling modes. To reach peak operational efficiency and effectiveness, a heating and cooling system should run for as long as possible to meet the loads. An analogy is that of a car: highway driving at a steady speed will get the best fuel economy, while speeding up and slowing down puts undue wear and tear on the engine and braking systems, and reduces fuel efficiency.
    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/51603.pdf
    Although it may seem counterintuitive, oversizing a boiler can actually decrease response times. It also increases short cycling, reduces equipment life, and decreases efficiency.

    Oversized heating equipment has negative impacts on energy use, comfort, and equipment durability because the system will short cycle, which means that a heating or cooling device turns off before the demand is met. As with most mechanical equipment, peak operational efficiency and effectiveness are reached when the unit runs for long, steady periods to address the loads.
    https://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrel.gov%2Fdocs%2Ffy13osti%2F 57826.pdf&ei=5Hw0U6akIqKa7QaAiID4AQ&usg=AFQjCNEi6xJjFwadwYq_s8F2bKsX9qEjIA&sig2=Z8qfxmGIGf05l97ZIL2MUA&bvm=bv.63808443,d.ZGU
    Last edited by tsugani; 27-03-2014 at 23:03:37.

  8. #8
    Äéá÷åéñéóôÞò monachus's Avatar
    Çìåñïìçíßá åããñáöÞò
    May 2001
    ÈÝóç
    Èåóóáëïíßêç
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    ÐáñÝíèåóç Áñ÷éêÜ äçìïóéåõìÝíï áðü ôïí tsugani ÅìöÜíéóç áðÜíôçóçò
    Êáé âÝâáéá îÝñïõìå ãéá ôß ìéëÜìå. Ôï éíôåñíåô åßíáé ãåìÜôï áðü ðëçñïöïñßá ãéá ôï èÝìá....

    Êáé äåí åßíáé ìüíï ç áõîçìÝíç êáôáíÜëùóç. Åßíáé êáé ç öèïñÜ ôïõ ëÝâçôá ðïõ ãïíáôßæåé ìå ôï Üíáøå-óâÞóå.
    Ïé óýíäåóìïé ðïõ ðáñÝèåóåò áíáöÝñïíôáé óôçí õðåñäéáóôáóéïëüãçóç ëåâÞôùí ãåíéêþò, êáé íïìßæù üëïé ìáò èá óõìöùíÞóïõìå üôé ç õðåñäéáóôáóéïëïãçóç áõôÞ êáé äáðáíçñÞ Þôáí óôç öÜóç êáôáóêåõÞò êáé Ý÷åé óáí áðïôÝëåóìá ôï ìç÷Üíçìá íá ìçí ëåéôïõñãåß üðùò áêñéâþò èá Ýðñåðå.

    Ôï åñþôçìá üìùò åäþ ìÜëëïí åßíáé ôï ôé åðßäñáóç Ý÷åé áõôÞ ç êáôÜóôáóç óôï äéêü óïõ ìç÷Üíçìá (ôï ïðïßï åßíáé óõìðõêíùìÜôùí) êáé ü÷é ôé åðßðôùóç Ý÷åé ãåíéêÜ óå üëåò ôéò åãêáôáóôÜóåéò.

    Óôï äéêü óïõ ìç÷Üíçìá ëïéðüí, üðùò óïõ åîÞãçóå ï marmaou, ôï short cycling äåí å÷åé óïâáñÞ åðéâÜñõíóç óôçí êáôáíÜëùóç, äéüôé ôï ìç÷Üíçìá óïõ ëåéôïõñãåß ãñáììéêÜ êáé ü÷é óáí on/off ìç÷Üíçìá.

    Óßãïõñá ïé óõ÷íÝò åêêéíÞóåéò Ý÷ïõí åðßðôùóç óôç äéÜñêåéá æùÞò ôùí åðé ìÝñïõò óôïé÷åßùí ôïõ ìç÷áíÞìáôïò, ç åðßðôùóç áõôÞ üìùò åðßóçò åßíáé ðïëý åëáöñýôåñç áðü ïôé óå åíá on /off ìç÷Üíçìá, (áöïý ôï ìç÷Üíçìá óïõ êáôÜ êÜðïéïí ôñüðï îåêéíÜåé ìå soft start) êáé óå êáìßá ðåñßðôùóç äåí äÝ÷ïìáé ïôé ï ôñüðïò ëåéôïõñãßáò ôïõ ìç÷áíÞìáôïò óïõ èá Ý÷åé óáí åðßðôùóç ôçí ìåßùóç ôçò äéÜñêåéáò æùÞò ôïõ êáôÜ 80% (üðùò äéÜâáóá óå áðüóðáóìá ðïõ ðáñÝèåóåò ðáñáðÜíù).

    ÔÝëïò ï óõëëïãéóìüò üôé "îÝñïõìå ãéáôß ðñÜãìá ìéëÜìå" åðåéäÞ "ôï ßíôåñíåô åßíáé ãåìÜôï ðëçñïöïñßåò", åßíáé êáôÜ ôç ãíþìç ìïõ ëáíèáóìÝíïò,, äéüôé áö´åíüò óôï ßíôåñíåô Ý÷ïõí ãñáöôåß êáé ãñÜöïíôáé Üðåéñåò áíïçóßåò êáé áö´åôáßñïõ åðåéäÞ ôï ãåãïíüò üôé êÜðïéïò Ý÷åé ðñüóâáóç óå ðëçñïöïñßåò äåí óçìáßíåé áðáñáßôçôá üôé ôéò êáôáëáâáßíåé Þ üôé ìðïñåß íá êáôáëÞîåé óå êÜðïéï ëïãéêü óùóôü óõìðÝñáóìá.
    "Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ åßíáé åñãÜôçò.
    Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ êáé ôï ìõáëü ôïõ åßíáé ôå÷íßôçò
    Áõôüò ðïõ åñãÜæåôáé ìå ôá ÷Ýñéá ôïõ, ôï ìõáëü ôïõ êáé ôçí êáñäéÜ ôïõ åßíáé êáëëéôÝ÷íçò."

    ¯ St Francis of Assisi

  9. #9
    Êáô'áñ÷Üò ôï ôåëåõôáßï link ðïõ ðáñÝèåóá áíáöÝñåôáé îåêÜèáñá óå ëÝâçôåò óõìðõêíùìÜôùí (condensing boilers). Åðßóçò, ôüóï ôï ôåëåõôáßï üóï êáé ôï ðñï-ôåëåõôáßï åßíáé åðßóçìá publications ôïõ US Department of Energy.

    ¢ñá èÝìá áîéïðéóôßáò äåí õðÜñ÷åé!!!

    ÔÝëïò, èá ðåñßìåíá üôé ç åðéâÜñõíóç åßíáé ìåãáëýôåñç óôçí ðåñßðôùóÞ ìïõ ëüãù áíôéóôÜèìéóçò, Üñá ÷áìçëÝò èåñìïêñáóßåò, Üñá ìéêñüôåñç éó÷ýò óôá óþìáôá, Üñá åíôïíüôåñï (óõ÷íüôåñï) cycling...

  10. #10
    ÓõíôïíéóôÞò marmaou's Avatar
    Çìåñïìçíßá åããñáöÞò
    Mar 2013
    ÈÝóç
    Pallini, Greece.
    Éäéüôçôá:
    Ì-Ç Ìç÷áíéêüò
    ÁðáíôÞóåéò
    171

    Çëåêôñïíéêü êáôÜóôçìá åéäþí èÝñìáíóçò êáé êëéìáôéóìïý

    ÐáñÝíèåóç Áñ÷éêÜ äçìïóéåõìÝíï áðü ôïí tsugani ÅìöÜíéóç áðÜíôçóçò
    ÔÝëïò, èá ðåñßìåíá üôé ç åðéâÜñõíóç åßíáé ìåãáëýôåñç óôçí ðåñßðôùóÞ ìïõ ëüãù áíôéóôÜèìéóçò, Üñá ÷áìçëÝò èåñìïêñáóßåò, Üñá ìéêñüôåñç éó÷ýò óôá óþìáôá, Üñá åíôïíüôåñï (óõ÷íüôåñï) cycling...
    1. Ïé êáëýôåñåò åðßäïóåéò ëüãù óõìðýêíùóçò åìöáíßæïíôáé óôéò ÷áìçëüôåñåò èåñìïêñáóßåò åðéóôñïöÞò (< 55ïC). Ç áíôéóôÜèìéóç âïçèÜ óå áõôü.
    2. ÅÜí ôï åã÷åéñßäéï ðïõ âñÞêá åßíáé ôï óùóôü ãéá ôïí ëÝâçôÜ óïõ, áõôüò îåêéíÜ óôï 60% ôçò ìÝãéóôçò éó÷ýïò.
    3. Åðßóçò óôéò ðáñáìÝôñïõò 83x êáé 86x ìðïñåß êáíåßò íá äåé èåñìïêñáóßåò ðñïóáãùãÞò, åðéóôñïöÞò, þñåò ëåéôïõñãßáò, åíáýóåéò êáé ôç ìÝóç ðåñßïäï æÞôçóçò èÝñìáíóçò. Ïðüôå ìéá ÷ïíäñéêÞ åêôßìçóç ôçò åðßäïóçò êáé ôçò óõ÷íüôçôáò ôùí áíáâïóâçìÜôùí åßíáé åöéêôÞ.

ÐáñåìöåñÞ èÝìáôá

  1. ÕðåñäéáóôáóéïëïãçìÝíïò ëÝâçôáò óõìðýêíùóçò
    áðü mechatron óôï öüñïõì Öõóéêü áÝñéï - õãñáÝñéï - LPG
    ÁðáíôÞóåéò: 6
    Ôåëåõôáßá áðÜíôçóç: 15-03-2014, 19:01:05
  2. ÕðåñäéáóôáóéïëïãçìÝíïò ëÝâçôáòêáé cycling
    áðü tsugani óôï öüñïõì ÅãêáôáóôÜóåéò èÝñìáíóçò.
    ÁðáíôÞóåéò: 0
    Ôåëåõôáßá áðÜíôçóç: 15-03-2014, 10:22:53

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